Rand's relationship with Egwene - General Wheel of Time Discussion - angelfirenm.info
This means that Rand and Elayne's relationship would be legal in the this means that Moiraine (Taringail's half sister) is not related to him. She shares no blood connection with Rand al'Thor. Interestingly, Elaida had always kept an eye on both Moiraine and Siuan, pushing both of them to live up. She doesn't dislike Rand, but as BS has said, Egwene sees goals rather .. I think Moiraine and Lan are an example of true friendship as well.
You know, you could, in theory, try to back up your assertion with quotes from the books. If you actually did that, it might actually give you some credibility. At the very least, it would put the ball in our court, with us having to argue why the passages you cited do not support your case.
As it is, since you haven't quoted anything, it is a reasonable conclusion to say that you have nothing. And your proof for your stance is? Now I don't think that the lack of quotes is proof of being wrong. But since you insist that it is I must now assume that you admit being wrong seeing as you don't present quotes for your stance.
Too bad your admitting such isn't proof of me being right, isn't it? My own position is that Alanna is indeed Green, and not Black. Thus, she can not lie when she makes an outright statement as she is doing here: The question should not have caught Alanna by surprise, yet it did. She hesitated, then drew out a chair and sat, arranging her skirts before she answered. It should have been done long ago. What Greens thought of the Reds having none was better left unsaid.
They are too important to run loose, him most of all. Now, her logic was seriously flawed, as it depends on the assumption that Bonwhin was correct to try to take control of a ta'veren.
However, the fact that she overlooked this to us obvious detail can be ascribed to a combination of her emotional state and Verin's meddling.
That does not change the fact that she did base her decision in logic.
Alanna tried to control Rand, as the following part shows: Compared to the other, that is only slapping his wrist. Color actually flooded her cheeks, partly in anger by the way her eyes flashed, and assuredly partly in shame. I certainly do not. It was much the same. Cadsuane scowled over the cup at her. There was no difference between what Alanna had done and a man forcing himself on a woman, but, the Light help her, she might have, had she believed it would help her reach her goal.
Now, she no longer considered even making Alanna pass the bond to her. Alanna had proved how useless that was in controlling him. Now, which specific quotes can you provide to show that Alanna did not act based on logic, and that what she did was not considered comparable to rape?
I think that the relationship between Mat and Tylin is definitely somewhat a product of RJ's generational upbringing and that it stems quite a bit from the theory that "a man can't be raped by a woman". We know that that theory is completely wrong but RJ was a guy that was born in the 40s and grew up in the 60s so his generational perspective was quite a bit different than ours I think.
So what read to him and many others as "lol, Mat got what was coming to him as a womanizer" is more "Wow, that's pretty bloody disturbing". Even if Mat ended up enjoying it in the end and clearly he did get some pleasure out of it, he was most definitely not a willing partner and Elayne's reaction to his plea about being raped definitely didn't help.
RJ worked from the assumption that men can't be raped, it seems, so he felt this was an inversion that could be tongue in cheek while, as Harriet has claimed, being maybe informative on the subject of "actual" rape. But the whole house of cards comes crashing down because, of course, this is "actual" rape.
RJ had a chance for a really strong storyline that he frittered away. Behaviour based on flawed logic is not logical behaviour. The assumption that her emotional state is getting in the way is a sound one. It is quite expected that she is not capable of logical behaviour in this state which you yourself just stated. Now me I'm fairly sure she can't be logical even when she has her emotions in check, but here that is something of a moot point.
Now it is shown several times that Aes Sedai can be untruthful so long as they themselves believe it. Many illogical people believe themselves to be logical. Thus Alanna's claim at being logical proves nothing. And as for the comparison with rape, that's one that is straight from the books: It is Alanna's view on the matter that counts not the world's and not Cadsuane's.
If Alanna doesn't acknowledge the harm she is misguided but not evil. You haven't yet provided any proof on her being logical. You also have not provided a quote in which Alanna or Myrelle acknowledges that forceful bonding is the same as rape.
Rape not being harmful is a bit tricky, but it would depend on how one defines rape. It is certainly difficult to imagine how one might rape for the greater good. If the species were on the brink of extinction, one could say that breeding was a duty regardless of emotions or sexual preferences, but in those circumstances the rapist isn't allowed to enjoy the act which might defeat the whole purpose.
Then again there is such a thing as guilty pleasure which just might give us some wriggle room.MORNING ROUTINE DE COUPLE💑
But this doesn't seem to apply to Lan and Myrelle in any case. Using that standard, no human can ever use logic at all, since we can never be perfect. Of course, you seem to use a similar "only absolute evil is real evil" standard, so that figures. It proves that she believed that what she did was logical. Actually, I agree with her there.
I think that the flaw in her reasoning was not in her logic, but in her assumptions. It is the Garbage In, Garbage Out problem, wherein you will end up with untrustworthy results even with impeccable logic if you start out from faulty axioms.
Using that same standard, no psychopath is evil either. After all, they don't consider their actions to be harmful; at most they think they made a mistake in being found out. Defenders of slavery in the USA managed that one. They started out by assuming that men are lustful and violent. Then they added that they wanted to protect white women from that. So the fact that slave owners raped their female slaves might not be nice, but it was definitely for the good.
You can read this in this post https: It also quotes a former slave woman who didn't agree with the sentiment, but I suspect that when she still was a slave no one had bothered to ask her. In that case, Myrelle's argument is that she is saving his life. She may even have been right, though as Egwene demonstrated there was a far simpler and more moral alternative to her course of action.
You claimed Semirhage's views on her actions don't matter. You claimed she knowingly does harm, whereas in her view, she's just taking a little payment for saving someone's life. Guess she's not evil either eh? We can work around our limits.
el'Nynaeve ti al'Meara Mandragoran
It is about admitting that logic is above you. You can't decide what it is you can only observe it. It is quite depressing how often the logical answer is "we don't know".
The point in this is that when an assumption demands that someone is logical it can so easily fall apart simply because being logical is so damn rare. Faulty axioms are flawed logic in themselves. What was the logical ground for making such an assumption? Obviously flawed as the assumption was false. Then it becomes a basic logical clause. Thus Alanna is not logical. Not all psychopaths are like that Gonzo. Some truly don't understand that what they do is wrong. Some believe themselves next thing to a god and entitled to cause as much harm as they want.
The former is dangerous but not evil, the latter is evil. I meant a legitimate greater good. Thinking up bullshit excuses is different. So is hiding behind a legitimate greater good when in reality you're doing exactly what you wanted.
Seanchan "greater good" may not really count, but even if it did a sul'dam that took pleasure in disciplining the damane was evil. The greater good was just an excuse not the actual motive. Assuming Lan was forced at all which remains unproven.
The point would still be in Myrelle accepting that it was a wrong thing to do. She is from Ebou Dar after all and the people there had some peculiar notions on what women can do to men as demonstrated by their queen. But it seems you missed my point in how one defines a rape. Tell me Gonzo, do you understand the term "masochist".
If you do I invite you to consider the difference between being raped and being ravished. Do you actually understand the word "knowingly"? If in her view she is claiming a payment she still understands that it causes harm. Moreover she isn't causing the harm because she thinks it is necessary, but because she wants to. Alanna's view was that Rand needed to be under Tower control. She is wrong as we know but she did not bond him from personal desire using the greater good as an excuse.
Misguided is not the same as evil. Which of those two is a closer analogue to the way in which Rand was bonded? I was thinking of Mat in this one actually. But since you ask I'd say what Alanna did to Rand would be one and what Elayne did to Birgitte would be the other. That was forced bonding too after all. Curious how it has been absent from the discussion.
I think that because Elayne did it as a purely selfless act to save her life I also imagine that Elayne would have willingly released the bond had Birgitte requested it. There is no evidence that supports that supposition but I base it on what we know about her character and her striving to be a good, fair ruler. The only goal was saving her life. If it had been possible, then Elayne would have asked, and she would probably have honoured a refusal. What Elayne did was emergency medical aid.
In the case of Mat, I would say that it was rape. Legally all right, obviously, what with Tylin being queen and all, but rape nonetheless. So you don't understand the difference between being raped and being ravished. Not sure if you have fully explored the concept of a masochist either. Not sure if you truly understand the difference. Do you understand and apply it to this or is it that you don't understand and can't see other alternatives? He said no, he tried to physically stop her.
She then pulled a knife on him and forced him.
And yes, I do understand the definitions of both words. Regardless, Mat was raped at knifepoint.
Seeing as that might result in either one you clearly don't. You are focusing on what happens before the act when the difference is in what happens after and during. Do you understand the concept of a masochist?
I would say she was raped, but if I understand Naz correctly then he would say that she wasn't. Here is how ravished is defined: The third meaning definitely cannot be used for sexual pleasure enforced at knife point. Put simply, in its original meaning, ravish already contained an implication of force it comes from the latin rapere which means "to seize" and is also the root for rape.
In modern literary usage, that implicit concept of force is removed, but its pretty clear that if you "fill someone with intense delight" against their will, modern usage calls for using the word "rape". Thus, the difference between rape and ravish in modern usage is at least partially about the implicit connotation of force. Are you claiming sul'dam and Seanchan society at large don't know that the a'dam causes pain and harm?
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They're accidentally causing pain while thinking they're coddling the damane? They know they cause harm. They believe that that harm is acceptable because it makes them feel safer.
They are knowingly trading the harm caused to channelers for their personal sense of security and control. This is not all that far from Semirhage wanting to trade her ability to Heal for her personal pleasure and sense of control. So how do you square that with Nazis who perpetrated the Holocaust because they felt it was the right thing to do for the Reich?
Surely, several of them genuinely believed that, rather than wanting to do so out of any "personal desire". Were they merely misguided? Think of compulsion as a fantasy analogue of GHB or any other date rape drug. The conclusions draw themselves Well that is a bit tougher. For the moment I'll go on a tangent. Is blackmail a robbery or is it a completely different crime?
If the price of silence is sex rather than money, is it then rape or simply blackmail? The victim is after all giving consent. By my thinking it is the harm that defines rape and since the blackmail victim would feel sexually violated and thus in spite of technical consent what happened was a rape.
I think it is safe to say that once Morgase found that she had been under Compulsion she felt sexually violated and thus what happened was a rape. There are many ways to force someone to have sex.
Drugs, blackmail, physical force. If they feel violated they were raped. If they feel excited they were ravished. Legally it is best to treat it as rape regardless, but that is because it is practically impossible to prove how mental damage was caused. Mat was forced yes.
Did he feel violated? She was surprised that she was able to hold Aginor as long as she did, knowing that Aginor in the AoL was close behind Lews Therin and Ishamael in power. Despite her strength being so reduced by the Finn, she also gained there an angreal that is so strong to be considered almost a sa'angreal: She was also the youngest half-sister of Taringail Damodredand spent much of her childhood in the Sun Palace. She is GaladGawyn and Elayne 's aunt. She shares no blood connection with Rand al'Thor.
Moiraine using the One Power. However before she left for the White Tower, a grand dance was thrown in her honor. She wisely kept this a secret until she could tell King Laman's Aes Sedai advisor; said advisor taught her for a short time before sending her to Tar Valon. All this was kept secret so Moiraine could avoid the stigma of being a wilder. Moiraine had already taught herself her eavesdropping trick, among others.
As a Novice she became close friends -- pillow friendsin fact -- with a young woman named Siuan Sanche. Unusually, they arrived at the White Tower on the same day. They became pillow friends for comfort and to ease their libidos, despite neither being lesbian. Both were quick learners, passing all rituals on their first attempt, although Moiraine had the benefit of a classical education in the Old Tongue and knew much of the politics and history of the world before she arrived at the Tower, whereas Siuan did not.
Nevertheless, credit must be given to Moiraine in her skill in the One Power. Siuan always took the lead between them, which surprised Moiraine at first, until she realized Siuan had been born to lead.
She and Siuan become Accepted after three years and Aes Sedai after a further three years. In the history of the White Tower, only one other woman had become Aes Sedai in such a short time: Elaida do Avriny a'Roihan. This may have been one of the many sources of animosity that would emerge between the two women over the years to come. Interestingly, Elaida had always kept an eye on both Moiraine and Siuan, pushing both of them to live up to her extremely high standards and not allowing a single slip.
On this day, the Aiel War came right up to the banks of the River Erinin outside Tar Valon itself, where her uncle Laman had retreated with the remainder of his Cairhien forces. That day Moroso foretold that at that very moment the Dragon had been reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount not far away, and immediately fell down dead.
The Dragon Rebornthough necessary, was not the most celebrated of saviors; he was prophesied to save the world, and yet break it.
The night before their raising, they tried to play a last prank on Elaida by sneaking mice into her bed. Elaida caught them and made sure they were punished severely. It was around this time that several Sitters began insinuating that Moiraine should take the throne of Cairhien. This made her uncomfortable, and added to her motivation to escape the Tower the other being to search for the Dragon.
At an unspecified time during her decade long search for the Dragon Reborn, she acquired an angrealhaving been given permission from the Hall of the Tower, possibly through pressure on Siuan's part, as implied during their conversation in Fal Dara . Their journey ultimately took them to Shienar and the Eye of the Worldwhere Rand channeled consciously for the first time.
Soon after, Moiraine knew she'd found the Dragon Reborn. Moiraine left Rand, with a small group to recover the Horn of Valere only to find him again after the Battle of Falme. After that Moiraine left Rand's side as little as possible. The only time she left his side again was during the events leading up to the fall of the Stone of Tearwhen Rand snuck away to see if he could draw the sword Callandor and fulfill an important prophecy concerning the Dragon Reborn, or see if he was only a False Dragon.
Despite his success, Rand resented what he saw as interference and manipulation on Moiraine's part; though she seemed to be trying to help him, Aes Sedai are used to getting what they want, and keeping their plans to themselves. Finally, after Rand's journey to Rhuidean in the Aiel Wastethe two managed to form a sort of compromise, with Rand agreeing to listen if Moiraine agreed to merely advise.
While at Rhuidean, Moiraine had entered a ter'angreal that showed her hundreds of possible futures; furthermore, she knew that if she wasn't present at the docks that day, Lanfeara Forsaken who was obsessed with him, might take control over Rand. When Rand refused to kill Lanfear, even in his own defense, Moiraine took matters into her own hands.
The twisted redstone doorframe from Rhuidean was present nearby, and Moiraine shoved Lanfear through it by tackling her, and thus joined her inside, ending the assault but presumably also both their lives: Because she had altered her bond so that Lan would belong to another Aes Sedai instead of trying to avenge her prior to her visions beyond the doorway, and possibly because of NynaeveLan left immediately, if not happily, to seek out Myrelle Berengari.
Also, an important viewing of Min Farshaw 's alarmingly suggests that without Moiraine's help, Rand is doomed to failure. She also promised to meet Thom again and provide him with information on who Gentled his nephew, and she sounded certain they would meet again.